záznamy u Kutná Hora nebo Podhořan u Ronova

[KutnáHora]

Dobrý den!

I am from the United States and have been tracing my Czech ancestry for a couple years now. I have been searching through ebadatelna.soapraha.cz and vychodoceskearchivy.cz to build my family tree but am stuck now. Does anyone in this wonderful forum have experience searching these archives? Most of the relatives I am searching for were from Kutná Hora and Podhořan u Ronova in the 1700-1800s.

I have many records for other relatives that were kindly translated for me and each provides clues and information about parents and grandparents, where they were from, their occupations, and sometimes other details that should help us locate their own baptism, marriage, or funeral records. After many hours of searching, I am having trouble expanding my family tree. A couple people have suggested this forum might be helpful!

Here is a list of the people/families I am searching for. I included information about them and provide links to images of the records where I gathered this information:

Kateřina Kořínek (baptism and marriage records?), catholic born about 1793 according to her grandson Václav Mucha’s 1851 birth record (https://imgur.com/a/GACUwcG). I found a potential match in a baptism index (https://imgur.com/a/VZ6bH4O) but cannot locate this baptism record. Here is a record of her funeral (https://imgur.com/a/hvrfdDn).

Kateřina’s father Matěj Kořínek (baptism, marriage, funeral records?), a catholic, gamekeeper, from Miskovice, house no. 9, (formerly Malešanské domain – according to Vaclav’s sister’s birth record, https://imgur.com/a/b6jhT48), now [in 1851] the Čáslav district, Kutná Hora subregion, Pardubice region.

Václav Mucha (any baptism estimated mid-1700s, marriage estimated 1780s, funeral record?). Here is his son Karel’s baptism (https://imgur.com/a/2SDzwdx) and second marriage record (https://imgur.com/a/tgqzXa5)

Anna Jelínek (birth or marriage records? Birth estimated 1760, marriage estimated 1780s). Same as above, here is her son son Karel’s baptism (https://imgur.com/a/2SDzwdx) and second marriage record (https://imgur.com/a/tgqzXa5). In addition, here is her death record (https://imgur.com/a/NgjP0mP)

Maria Doutlík (baptism or funeral records?). Here’s her marriage record (https://imgur.com/a/ef9cthY), which lists her parents as František Doutlík and Barbora Tamiška. Her son’s baptism record (https://imgur.com/a/GACUwcG) also lists her parents and her maternal grandfather František Doutlík who I also haven’t been able to locate any records of. Some info from her son’s birth record: Marie, a catholic, marital daughter; father: František Doutlík, a catholic, a chalupner, from Nový Dvůr, house no. 74, (former Podhořavské domain); mother: Barbora; mother’s father: František Tamiška, a catholic, a miller, from Kraskov, house no. 15, (formerly Ranovské domain, now [in 1851] the Kutná Hora subregion – from sister’s record).

František Hájek (Kříž) (baptism record?, estimated 1828). I have his marriage record (https://imgur.com/a/tHUE8vU), which lists his mother as Kateřina Hájek and step-father as Martin Kriz, and grandfather as Antonín Hájek from Jičín. I can’t locate these people yet.

Felix Petinger (baptism, marriage, funeral records?) or his wife Barbora Goetz. Here is their daughter’s birth record (https://imgur.com/a/p9qGR7g), which gives all of the info about Felix, his parents (Joseph Petinger and Appolonia), and Barbora and her parents (Johan Goetz and Barbara Kostmacher) and grandfather (Jakob Kostmacher). From her birth record we learn that Aloisia Anna Petinger was born on May, 24, 1832 in house # 452, catholic, legitimate daughter of Felix Petinger, draper, son of Joseph Petinger, an Inwohner, and Appolonia neé [not specified] Barbara, daughter of Johan Kelz, inwohner, and Barbara from the house of Jakob Kostmacher, inwohner.

I would be happy to answer any questions or provide other details, documents, transcriptions in Czech, or chat about your own genealogy.

Děkuji!
Daniel (potomek: Mucha, Kříž, Hájek, Kořínek, Doutlík, Petinger, Tamiška, Goetz, Kostmacher)

[zburget]

Hello Daniel, welcome and well come!

There's a handful of questions and it's unclear to me, where to start from. To start somewhere, please adopt the "good reference practice":

- posting images to a hosting such as IMGUR is interesting only for the records taken from Zámrsk archive (vychodoceskearchivy.cz); even for those, it's important to keep the <book signature> and <image number> somewhere.
- from ebadatelna.soapraha.cz you can post the full URL (example is the baptism index https://imgur.com/a/VZ6bH4O - it is actually https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/4471/47)
- other archives in CZ typically offer a "permalink" button on a page, which generates a persistent URL reference for you.

With the exact references in place, the reader does not need to waste time by locating the record first among the thousands of others.

With regards to aforementioned birth index, where the heck you see your Kateřina? I went through the page and none of Kateřinas seems to bore surname Kořínek. Indeed I may have overlooked her, but I only see Křeček, Kučera, Kašpar, Kukal where Kateřina is a first name.

By quick search, I found a marriage between Karel Mucha and Kateřina Kořínek, 1821 Nov 26 at Miskovice Nr. 45 (https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/12645/60 - first at left page) - have you found it as well? Knowing the father of Kateřina was dead by 1821, it gave me clue to locating the + record of Matěj Kořínek, 54-year old gamekeeper, 1804 Mar 26 at Suchdol Nr. 40 (https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/12648/26 - last on right page). Whether this one is her father, "your" Matěj or is not, I cannot tell. But points to Suchdol parish as a possible location of Kateřina's birth.

Note that gamekeepers (as well as few other occupations, such as shepherds, millers) were quite mobile, in geographical context.

[Boza]

Got an update about suspected father of Kateřina, Matěj Kořínek "the gamekeeper":

While snooping in parish Suchdol, I found birth of Barbora, daughter of Matěj Kořínek, gamekeeper & his wife Anna (daughter of +Jan Vojtíšek from Bohuňovice and Dorota born Skoupý[?]), at Suchdol Nr. 40, on Dec 5 1799: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/12641/21 - top right.

OK, that seems like the same location where Matěj has died five years later. So let's assume this newfound Barbora is a younger sister of Kateřina, and, presumably last child of Matěj. But, I found no sign of other children pre-1799 in either Suchdol or Miskovice villages; I was not going through other villages in same book. Perhaps they relocated to Suchdol/Miskovice area shortly before 1799.

Anyway, knowing the presumable mother of Kateřina now, I turned to nearby Bohuňovice village, which is parish Nebovidy. There, I found a marriage of above couple, on Oct 6, 1783 at Bohuňovice Nr. 21: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/9437/390 top left. Cool, so let's see what children this village yields:

1796 Nov 29 son Josef: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/9438/265
1793 Dec 9 Kateřina: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/9438/263
1791 Sep 27 son Václav: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/9438/262
1788 Nov 10 son Jan Křtitel: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/9438/258

I might have missed a child or two, due to reading lines directly without using indices. In conclusion, looks like your Kateřina has finally surfaced and please ignore my above comment about indice from Bykáň parish. In 1783 marriage record, you will see more details about Matěj (in Latin).

Good luck for now, need now to pay attention to what I'm paid for

[Boza]

Before I leave office for today (and thus forget it):

1783 Oct 26 Habrkovice Nr. 25, marriage of widowed Václav Mucha vs. Anna daughter of František Vlach from Chlum: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8639/112

Remark on Karel Mucha's mother surname:
1785 Jan 19 Nr. 8 son Václav https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/3, mother surname not recorded
1787 Aug 28 Nr. 8 son František https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/5, mother surname not recorded
1790 Oct 2 Nr. 8 son Josef https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/6, mother surname not recorded
1795 May 1 Nr. 8 son Karel https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/10, mother surname recorded as Figulkova(?)
1798 Mar 5 Nr. 8 son Jan https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/12, mother surname recorded as Vlachova - consistent with aforementioned marriage record.

Previous wife of Václav Mucha, Dorota, dies 1783 Aug 25 aged approx. 39: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8639/154. Good, let's search for such marriage.

Václav Mucha x Dorota Fialka have married on Oct 13, 1764 https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/13777/142. You will find several children of that couple between 1765 and 1783; Dorota apparently died after giving birth to her last child, František.

Enjoy

[KutnáHora]

...
- posting images to a hosting such as IMGUR is interesting only for the records taken from Zámrsk archive (vychodoceskearchivy.cz); even for those, it's important to keep the <book signature> and <image number> somewhere.

With regards to aforementioned birth index, where the heck you see your Kateřina? I went through the page and none of Kateřinas seems to bore surname Kořínek. Indeed I may have overlooked her, but I only see Křeček, Kučera, Kašpar, Kukal where Kateřina is a first name.

By quick search, I found a marriage between Karel Mucha and Kateřina Kořínek, 1821 Nov 26 at Miskovice Nr. 45 (https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/12645/60 - first at left page) - have you found it as well? Knowing the father of Kateřina was dead by 1821, it gave me clue to locating the + record of Matěj Kořínek, 54-year old gamekeeper, 1804 Mar 26 at Suchdol Nr. 40 (https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/12648/26 - last on right page). Whether this one is her father, "your" Matěj or is not, I cannot tell. But points to Suchdol parish as a possible location of Kateřina's birth.

Note that gamekeepers (as well as few other occupations, such as shepherds, millers) were quite mobile, in geographical context.

Boza! Jste můj hrdina!!!

I will definitely adopt best practices for linking to records. My apologies, I even had good advice from another forum user who told me to carefully check the rules.

My eyes were wanting to see Kořínek in that index I linked to. Embarrassingly, I think it was Křeček (https://imgur.com/a/TYfIGcO).

The Mucha and Kořínek 1821 marriage and Matěj's 1804 death you linked to are new to me. Thank you!

[KutnáHora]

... Anna (daughter of +Jan Vojtíšek from Bohuňovice and Dorota born Skoupý[?]), ... Bohuňovice village, which is parish Nebovidy. ... details about Matěj (in Latin).

Good luck for now, need now to pay attention to what I'm paid for

Two new surnames (Vojtíšek and Skoupý)! A new village and parish (Bohuňovice, Nebovidy)! And a record in Latin!

Thank you so much for spending time with these records.

[KutnáHora]

Before I leave office for today (and thus forget it):

1783 Oct 26 Habrkovice Nr. 25, marriage of widowed Václav Mucha vs. Anna daughter of František Vlach from Chlum: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8639/112

Remark on Karel Mucha's mother surname:
1785 Jan 19 Nr. 8 son Václav https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/3, mother surname not recorded
1787 Aug 28 Nr. 8 son František https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/5, mother surname not recorded
1790 Oct 2 Nr. 8 son Josef https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/6, mother surname not recorded
1795 May 1 Nr. 8 son Karel https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/10, mother surname recorded as Figulkova(?)
1798 Mar 5 Nr. 8 son Jan https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8644/12, mother surname recorded as Vlachova - consistent with aforementioned marriage record.

Previous wife of Václav Mucha, Dorota, dies 1783 Aug 25 aged approx. 39: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8639/154. Good, let's search for such marriage.

Václav Mucha x Dorota Fialka have married on Oct 13, 1764 https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/13777/142. You will find several children of that couple between 1765 and 1783; Dorota apparently died after giving birth to her last child, František.

Enjoy

The marriage record for Karel Mucha lists his mother's surname as Jelínek (found in the Zámrsk archiv, matriak no. 9890, sign no. 1885, page 179, file name: CZEC0004D_Matriky-Church-books-Pardubice-1885-1825-1869_00092.jpg). Here's the imgur link posted earlier: https://imgur.com/a/tgqzXa5

Do you think Jelínek likely should be Vlachova and maybe it was wrongly reported in Karel's marriage record?

[Boza]

Well, consider that marriage of Karel Mucha and Dorota (born Musil) in 1869 is a marriage of a quite old man, by 19th century standards.

Let's see what happened to his parents (assuming the Karel born 1795 is the right one):

Václav Mucha dies at Habrkovice Nr. 28 (typo from 8?) on Mar 12 1799 https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8646/8, ~53 years old
Anna, his 2nd wife and Karel's mother, dies at Habrkovice Nr. 8 on Dec 20 1807 https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/8646/10 ~47 years old.

Yet some 62 years later, a widower aged 74 marries a widow younger by few years... Seriously, who at the time cares about his long-ceased parents? Even nowadays, how many percent of people of such age would remember perfectly the father who died when he has been ~4 years old, and more importantly, born surname of his mother who died when he has been ~13 years old? BTW this implies Karel and his surviving siblings were perhaps raised by / supported by some relatives or neighbors. He probably had some papers for sake of state administration, maybe not; even if yes, could such a papers be trusted?

You will never know for sure. A speculation only... but in my humble opinion, I will trust contemporary records, rather than a record made decades later. This said, can you try to find / link birth of Karel's son Matěj? Yet another way would be to carefully read marriages in parish Záboří nad Labem, to cross-check for any marriages of Karel's siblings and thus additional clues, specifically with any surviving sister(s).

[Boza]

Now, to the couple of Fr. Dautlik (also Doutlik) vs. Barbora Tomišková (also Tomischka, Tomissko etc.). This riddle was rather difficult (millers!) but here we go:

First, I had a general look at Kraskov village and found nothing interesting. Then, in a Zámrsk archive book 8563 sign. 1030, picture #65 I saw the 2nd marriage of ~68-year old Fr. Tomiško, dated Apr 29, 1834. To my surprise, the record reads in Czech "widower, former miller from Licomělice Nr. 29, son of Jan and Kateřina born H????? from Zdechovice(?)" - it is bit beyond my reading skills but yeah, interesting clue. He apparently relocated to Kraskov ex post, which explains why his grand-daughter's Marie marriage in 1845 says he's from "from Kraskov". Then my search derailed for a while, as there are two villages close to each other: Licoměřice and Licomělice, some 5 km walking distance. Needless to say, I wasted time with former village first, the wrong one. Nice trap, LOL. After some starring at map I realized my mistake, so:

> Marie Dautlik was born Sep 12, 1825 at Licomělice Nr. 39: 2265 sign. 869, picture #79
> Fr. Dautlik marriage with Barbora Tomischko was on Oct 29, 1820 at Licomělice Nr. 39: 2279 sign. 875, picture #14. Barbora is said to be daughter of František T. and Kateřina Blažek. For Kateřina or both, hint is given as from dominion of Nasavrky - Nassaberger herrschaft.

Going further, I would recommend you to first locate and study more children of said couple, and then, try to decipher the 1820 marriage (in German); it's beyond my skills to read the groom part in full. The index book 2291 sign. 879 will guide you in children search, look at picture #37. Note you will come across other kids of unrelated (or, maybe cousin?) Fr. Dautlik, also a miller (wife Kateřina, if I recall well). And indeed, you can widen your search by looking up + record of 1st wife of Fr. Tomiško, Kateřina, before Apr 1834, either at Licomělice or Kraskov.

Last thing, small correction to transcript of dominions: Podhořavské = Podhořanské, after Podhořany u Ronova; Ranovské = Ronovské, after Ronov nad Doubravou.

I doubt I will find any spare time for further research from my side. Occasionally, I may be available to simple checks. Nevertheless, you do see the leads to all the finds I have listed so far (without looking to MH, FS or such sources):
a) old records usually contain status quo at the time they were written, not the true past,
b) is quite useful to record and study the siblings & half-siblings,
c) otherwise unrelated events such as 2nd marriages of widowed people can give important clues.

Good luck. B.