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Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: čtv úno 23, 2017 6:45
od Galaktion
Ahoj! Odpusťte mi, nemluvím česky. Používám Google Translate. :oops:

Mám předky z Rakouska-Uherska. Můj muž předek měl české příjmení a oba jeho rodiče se narodili v Čechách. Nevím, kde se narodil jeho žena. Nevím, kde se vdala. Můj předchůdce a jeho žena žila ve Vídni a zvýšil jejich děti tam. rodné jméno mé ženské předchůdce byl "Schultschik". "Schuts" Vypadá německý mi, ale "chik" Vypadá česky. Chci vědět, je "Schultschik" české příjmení nebo německým příjmení?

Vidím, že je vzácná česká příjmení Šulčík. Sch (nem.) = Š (če.), ul (nem.) = ul (če.), tsch (nem.) = č (če.), ik (nem.) = ík (če.)? Také, tam je polský název podobný "Schultschik"; to je "Szulczyk." Česká a polská jazyky jsou oba slovanské, tak jsem si myslel, že to možná bylo běžné v zemích poblíž Německu nebo v jeho blízkosti Rakouska-Uherska vytvořit příjmení na základě německého slova "Schultz (nem.) / Šulc (če.).".

Takže si všichni myslí, že Schultschik je česká příjmení založený na německé slovo? Nebo si všichni myslí, že je etnicky německý příjmení?

Děkuji! Je mi velice líto, že jsem použil GoogleTranslate.

(I don't know if we are allowed to speak in foreign languages on this forum, but I do speak English, if that would be preferable. :) )

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: čtv úno 23, 2017 8:57
od ozana
česká výslovnost je Šulčík = zdrobnělina Šulc z německého Schultz; původně = kdo dohlíží na plnění povinností k vrchnosti, později = hlava obce

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: čtv úno 23, 2017 12:05
od Dawid
And in English (to make it easier for you):
You got it absolutely right :) There's the German surname Schultz, spelled Szulc in Polish and Šulc in Czech. And in Slavic languages, a diminutive suffix -yk (PL) = -ík (CZ) can be added, creating Szulczyk/Šulčík (spelled Schultschik in German), which is somethig like "a little Schulz" or "an unimportant Schulz" (it was often attributed to sons of men called "Šulc" - first as their nicknames, later becomming inherited family names).
And as ozana correctly remarks, the original term (Schulz) means "a reeve" (a village official, being both the head of a self-government of local serfs and a representative of their landlord); so it's more or less certain that people who carry the surname Šulc or Šulčík must have had one of these petty officials amongst their ancestors.

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: čtv úno 23, 2017 17:59
od Galaktion
Děkuji, ozana; thank you, Dawid!

I guess in both cases -- Šulčík and Szulczyk -- the Austrians would have transliterated it as Schultschik, so the next challenge is to get access to Austrian records and see if I can figure out where my ancestor Schultschik's family came from. I would think the modern day Czech Republic or Slovakia, since surely it would have been easier to move from there to Vienna than from Poland to Vienna, right? Additionally, she married a Czech man, and people tend to marry people from similar cultures.

I have another question, please. Do you know anything about how the Austrians handled the names of unmarried Czech women when they moved to Austria? Did they retain the -ová? Or would they drop that since it was a grammatical ending? I ask because it seems my female ancestor's surname was Schultschik, not Schultschikova. To me that hints that she was likely born in Austria where they do not modify surnames based on the gender of the child. If her father and mother (or grandfather and grandmother, or even further back) were immigrants, Herr Šulčík and Frau Šulčíková, all their children would bear the same name with German orthography, Schultschik. If she had been born in the Czech Republic, she would have been, I suppose, born a Šulčíková, and later in Austria been known as Schultschikova. However, is that correct or am I wrong? If a young woman named Šulčíková moved to Austria, would they have just Austrianized her name as Schultschik, leaving off the -ová?

Thanks again for the help!

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: čtv úno 23, 2017 21:43
od Dawid
Well, if your informations about Miss Schultschik's maiden name come only from documents made/issued in Vienna, than you don't even know what was the original form of this surname of hers :); it would be germanized (adjusted to the language and habits of the German-speaking environs), both in spelling and in its grammatical form, no matter where she came from and what her native language was. Until 1918, the officials didn't really care.

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: čtv úno 23, 2017 23:55
od Galaktion
At this point, indeed that's all I have, one instance of her maiden name, spelled Schultschik. Everything else is sheer guesswork based on her location (Vienna, which had a very large Czech population around the time of her birth circa 1900) and the ethnicity of the man she married (Czech).

When you said "it would be germanized [...] both in spelling and in it's grammatical form," do I understand it correctly that you are saying grammatical endings like -ová would likely be dropped? If so, that's interesting and complicates things a bit more. It seems the Austrians didn't keep the best records, and I haven't found any success finding marriage or birth information for her online.

By the way, I have another Czech ancestor with the surname Křiváček. The Wikipedia entry for Křivák says "morálně pokřivený člověk." Oh no! Does that mean my ancestor was a "morálně pokřivený člověk"? :shock: :lol:

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: pát úno 24, 2017 0:16
od Dawid
Galaktion píše:At this point, indeed that's all I have, one instance of her maiden name
And what is this one instance exactly?

Galaktion píše:When you said "it would be germanized [...] both in spelling and in it's grammatical form," do I understand it correctly that you are saying grammatical endings like -ová would likely be dropped?
Yes. In documents written in German most certainly so.

Galaktion píše:Does that mean my ancestor was a "morálně pokřivený člověk"? :shock: :lol:
:) By no means. The epithet can as well refer to the person's physical appearance.

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: pát úno 24, 2017 1:53
od Galaktion
Dawid píše:And what is this one instance exactly?


An obituary written in a newspaper of the city where she and her husband emigrated to. They listed her birth year, place of birth (Vienna), and maiden name.

Galaktion píše:Yes. In documents written in German most certainly so.


Excellent, thanks.

Galaktion píše: :) By no means. The epithet can as well refer to the person's physical appearance.


Thank goodness! :wink:

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: pát úno 24, 2017 11:10
od Dawid
Alright, let's move on then :)
I think the best next step would be having a look if there aren't some surviving documents regarding their emigration to US. So if you can post some photograph of this obituary (or at least copy the data found there) and any other information you might have about the lady, I would then write some questions and guidelines for the Czech colleagues here. There are people experienced in searching for emigrants to America amongst them, so you'll see what happens. (Unfortunately, I don't have time to inquire into your case much longer - but I can keep observing and translate if needed.)

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: sob úno 25, 2017 19:42
od Galaktion
Děkuju! From what I've been able to find (and this is all from an obituary, so it is not as reliable as a legal document):
Name: Emma Muzik
Place of birth: Vienna
Date of birth: 10 February 1903
Date of death: 17 August 1986
Place of death: Colorado, USA
Father: Johan Schultschick (spelled in her husband's obituary as Schultschik)
Mother: Emma (maiden name Schmidt)
Husband: Alois Muzik
Date of marriage: 10 May 1924 (that is what it says in her obituary; in her husband's obituary, it says they were married in 1923)
Religion: Catholic
Children: Rudolph, Friedrich, Rosa/Rose, Luise/Louise, Emma (I believe they were all born in Vienna)

Thank you again!

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: ned úno 26, 2017 19:32
od Dawid
Ah, I see. It's from here, isn't it :)

Well, I gave it some thought yet - and you know what? I think you can very well proceed all by yourself:

First, take a look to this, this, this, this, this and this thread (they're all about emigrants from Europe to US). Check all the links there are (some may not be clickable, just mentioned in the posts). They go to multiple databases and other webpages that might (or might not) give you some more information about those people of yours.

And second (and more important), since you know the precise date of Emma's birth, it shouldn't be so hard to check all (yes, ALL) birth records from Vienna there are. There were dozens of parishes by that time, but you only need to check one single book for each of them, and only one paticular page in each of these books (which shouldn't be difficult to find, as the records are usually ordered by time).
What do you say? :)
Here is where all the records are presented online. Just click Austria > Wien > Wien Stadt in the menu on the left. And then - start going, parish by parish. Birth records are "Taufbuch", timespan is easy to figure, and so is the symbol of a camera.

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: ned úno 26, 2017 20:03
od Galaktion
Yup, that's originally where I found the Schultschik name. I have since then tracked down a scan of the actual article it was extracted from, as well as Emma's own obituary from 1986, just to confirm.

Thanks for the links! I will see how many records I can go through on that website before going insane :P

I'm guessing the date in the second column is the date of baptism not birth? If that's the case, do you know how long people in that part of the world at that time would have waited until baptism? I know it varies by culture.

Also, in order to find her, I would be looking for "Emma" under the "Name des Getauften" and then the "Tauf- und Zuname des Vaters" and "des Mutter" to find her father and mother?

Děkuju again!

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: ned úno 26, 2017 23:59
od Dawid
Galaktion píše:I'm guessing the date in the second column is the date of baptism not birth?
Can you provide link to the page you're refering to?
But generally: yes, both the date of birth and of baptism were recorded - mostly with 0 to 3 days between them.

Galaktion píše:Also, in order to find her, I would be looking for "Emma" under the "Name des Getauften" and then the "Tauf- und Zuname des Vaters" and "des Mutter" to find her father and mother?
Exactly.

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: pon úno 27, 2017 21:36
od Galaktion
Thanks, I think I have it figured out. I'm going through them--slowly, but surely. If I happen to find her, I'll post a screenshot of what I find here. I'll almost certainly have trouble understanding the handwriting, and of course I can't understand German, which only complicates the matter :P

The good thing is it appears Emma was not a popular name in 1903 in Vienna as I don't think I've come across a single one yet. Certainly not as popular as Josef and Anna, which I've seen many of.

Re: Schultschik

PříspěvekNapsal: pon úno 27, 2017 22:20
od Dawid
Yup, it was by no means a frequent name at any time. But remember, she might have been baptised Emilia, Emmanuela (though the latter would be extremely rare) etc. as well.

Looking forward to hear that you found her :)